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	<title>Fill &amp; Pack | RJG, Inc.</title>
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		<title>Tip of the Day 176: Why Use a Percent of Peak for Pack?</title>
		<link>https://de.rjginc.com/tip/why-use-a-percent-of-peak-for-pack-4/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RJG Import]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 00:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
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<section class="wp-block-e25m-section bs-section bs-section-3c801e93c5c91c2ac40dd278fede715518a800d9 bs-section---default bs-section--privacy-policy bs-section--white-header"><div class="container">
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<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><h2 class="wp-block-post-title">Tip of the Day 176: Why Use a Percent of Peak for Pack?</h2>

<div class="wp-block-post-date"><time datetime="2012-02-14T19:57:44-05:00">Februar 14, 2012</time></div></div>



<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><p>In order to calculate good pack numbers<sup>†</sup> from cavity pressure sensors, the <em>eDART</em><span style="mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin;">™</span> must be given the correct information about what “packed” means. In the Sequence Settings you select the sensor location you want to use to determine whether the cavity is packed.</p><br /><br /><p><img src="https://rjginc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/tip176-image1.gif"/></p><br /><br /><p> </p><br /><br /><p><strong>Why don’t we use just the peak time instead of a percentage?</strong></p><br /><br /><p>Often the area of the curve where the peak occurs is quite flat. Being a digital system, there can be very tiny steps between the peak and its neighboring data points. On one shot the step can randomly occur early in the shot and on the next later. This often causes wild variations in the peak time as shown here.</p><br /><br /><p><img src="https://rjginc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/tip176-image2.gif"/></p><br /><br /><p><img src="https://rjginc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/tip176-image3.gif"/></p><br /><br /><p>If we pick a percentage of the peak then the data are much more stable. Notice in the graphs above that 95% of peak is approximately in the same place shot-to-shot for the same data. Thus we still get the important data computed that relates to packing without artificial variation in time-to-peak.</p><br /><br /><hr /><p><sup><strong>†</strong></sup><strong> Which summary values depend on the pack percentage sequence setting?</strong></p><br /><br /><ul><br /><li><br /><em>Pack Rate</em> (by cavity)</li><br />	<li><br /><em>Pack Time</em> (by cavity)</li><br />	<li><br /><em>Fill and Pack Integral</em> (every cavity, regardless of location chosen)</li><br />	<li><br /><em>Fill and Pack Time</em> (every cavity, regardless of location chosen)</li><br /></ul><p><sup>‡</sup> A new “process” or setup is any new Job Setup combination of Mold, Material and Cavities</p></div>
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		<title>Tip of the Day 174: Wherefore &#8222;Fill and Pack Integral&#8220;?</title>
		<link>https://de.rjginc.com/tip/wherefore-fill-and-pack-integral-4/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RJG Import]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 00:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
				<guid isPermaLink="false">https://rjginc.com/wherefore-fill-and-pack-integral-4/</guid>

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<section class="wp-block-e25m-section bs-section bs-section-3c801e93c5c91c2ac40dd278fede715518a800d9 bs-section---default bs-section--privacy-policy bs-section--white-header"><div class="container">
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<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><h2 class="wp-block-post-title">Tip of the Day 174: Wherefore &#8222;Fill and Pack Integral&#8220;?</h2>

<div class="wp-block-post-date"><time datetime="2012-02-02T19:38:44-05:00">Februar 2, 2012</time></div></div>



<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><p>We have recently seen several customers using the <em>eDART</em>™ summary value “<em>Fill and Pack Integral</em>” for a part quality alarm. This value and “<em>Fill and Pack Time</em>” are most used for thin-wall molding quality alarms. We do not recommend using these for modest aspect ratio or thick parts. In thick-ish, parts the variation in this value is usually so small that more specific values of interest such as <em>Cycle Integral</em> or cavity fill time (“<em>Process Time / Cavity Fill</em>”) should be used for most quality alarms.</p><br /><br /><p>Here is why thin-wall quality (usually dimensions) commonly relates to <em>Fill and Pack</em> values.</p><br /><br /><p>In a word: <strong>freezing</strong>.</p><br /><br /><p>Suppose we have a PC part .030” ( ¾ mm) thick with a 3” (76 mm) flow length. Even though plastic does not conduct heat well, there is so little of it between the walls that it freezes very fast. Therefore, by the time filling and packing is complete the EoC region is mostly frozen. Often the sensors under frozen material pick up mold deflection which is not an influence on part quality. Consider this graph for explanation.</p><br /><br /><p><img src="https://rjginc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/tip174-image1.gif"/></p><br /><br /><p>If the pressurization of the End of Cavity sensor is critical to the part (e.g. for dimensions or even texture) then much of the data after it is frozen will not show any variation. The freezing of the EoC occurs somewhere between 0.453 and 0.735 seconds. We test it more precisely with some other hold pressure adjustements. If we want to know first-hand what happens during packing of this part we should look at the early portion of the curve. The <em>Fill and Pack Integral</em> tells us this.</p></div>
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		<title>Tip of the Day 22: What is it for, anyway?</title>
		<link>https://de.rjginc.com/tip/what-is-it-for-anyway-4/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RJG Import]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
				<guid isPermaLink="false">https://rjginc.com/what-is-it-for-anyway-4/</guid>

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<section class="wp-block-e25m-section bs-section bs-section-3c801e93c5c91c2ac40dd278fede715518a800d9 bs-section---default bs-section--privacy-policy bs-section--white-header"><div class="container">
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<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><h2 class="wp-block-post-title">Tip of the Day 22: What is it for, anyway?</h2>

<div class="wp-block-post-date"><time datetime="2008-04-11T09:44:42-04:00">April 11, 2008</time></div></div>



<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><p><div><br /><p>Now that you know how to ensure that the <em>eDART</em> computes good cavity fill times, what do you do with them? The simple answer is that for any type of molding <em>Process Time / Cavity Fill</em> can be used for at least the following:</p><br /><ul type="disc"><br />    <li>Containment: Add <em>Process Time / Cavity Fill</em> to the Alarm Settiings tool to sort for part quality including molecular orientation, stress, warp, texture splay, flow lines, knit line location and some specific issues relating to crystalinity. <em>Process Time / Cavity Fill</em> is the closest we can get to the plastics variable called &ldquo;Flow Rate&rdquo;. </li><br /></ul><br /><ul type="disc"><br />    <li>Analysis: Detecting check ring leakage (looking for variability), cavity blocking, balance, valve gate actuation problems and hot runner problems. </li><br /></ul><br /><ul type="disc"><br />    <li>Control: Ensuring consistent process setup by setting machine speeds so that cavity fill times come as close as possible to the template. This matches the in-cavity flow instead of matching machine flow. </li><br /></ul><br /><p><strong>Multi-Cavity Applications</strong></p><br /><p>In a multi-cavity mold one of the one of the first questions is: Is it balanced? Is it balanced when new? Shot to shot? At each time the process is started up fresh? Over the long haul?</p><br /><p>The <em>eDART</em> computes fill balance as a number called <em>Balance / Cavity Fill Time</em>. This is a percentage number. A value of 100% means that all cavities are filling in exactly the same time. Anything less than that means that the cavities are slightly out of balance. You can see the imbalance on the cycle graph </p><br /><p><strong>Medium to High Cavitation: 8 or more cavities</strong></p><br /><p>The cycle graph generally gets very busy with many cavities. This makes it difficult to know which cavity is causing the imbalance. If you want to observe the whole process you can remove all of the individual cavity curves and just put up <em>End of Cavity #High</em> and <em>End of Cavity #Low</em> (or <em>Post Gate</em> or whatever). These are the &ldquo;phantom&rdquo; curves in which the value at each point is the value of the highest or lowest cavity respectively.</p><br /><p>So the question immediately arises: How can I know which cavity is causing my mold to get out of balance and the <em>Balance / Cavity Fill Time</em> number to fall if I can&rsquo;t see all of the curves? Here is a simple technique:</p><br /><p>1. Use &ldquo;Add Value&rdquo; on the Cycle Values window to add all of the <em>Process Time / Cavity Fill</em> numbers (except for the phantom curves, #High, #Low, #Avg and #Rng). After selecting <em>Process Time</em> on the left you can choose one cavity on the right and then hold down the shift key to select a range with the next click or the control key to select individuals.</p><br /><p>2. Click the header word (button) labeled &ldquo;Value&rdquo; on the Cycle Values window. This will sort all of the cavity fill times by, either ascending or descending. Click the &ldquo;Value&rdquo; button a second time to reverse the order. Note that the Cycle Values window only sorts when you click. It does not sort continuously.</p><br /><p>Now you can discover which cavity is filling first and which is filling last and by how much. You can compare each to the average by putting <em>Average Value / Cavity Fill Time</em> on the Cycle Values window. This can be much less confusing than looking at a cycle graph with say 32 cavities and tying to pick out an offending cavity with color.</p><br /><p>To look for the most variable cavity add <em>Coefficient of Variation / Process Time / Cavity Fill</em> to the Statistics window and sort there as well.</p><br /></div></p></div>
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		<title>Tip of the Day 21: A Graphical Explanation</title>
		<link>https://de.rjginc.com/tip/a-graphical-explanation-4/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RJG Import]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
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<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><h2 class="wp-block-post-title">Tip of the Day 21: A Graphical Explanation</h2>

<div class="wp-block-post-date"><time datetime="2008-04-11T09:37:42-04:00">April 11, 2008</time></div></div>



<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><p><div><br /><p>In <a  href="https://rjginc.com/tips/19">tip #19</a> I discussed how cavity pressure curves determine the in cavity fill time summary value. The Pack time is similarly computed. To wit:</p><br /><br /><p><em>Process Time, Cavity Fill</em> = time from stroke / volume zero crossing to a default of 1000 psi at the end of cavity sensor</p><br /><br /><p><em>Process Time, Cavity Pack</em> = time from cavity fill until the post gate pressure reaches 98% of the post gate sensor peak</p><br /><br /><p><em>Pack Rate, Post Gate</em> = Pressure rise on the post gate sensor from the time the cavity is full until 98% of post gate peak divided by the pack time.</p><br /><br /><p>The 98% value for pack is a way of getting around the use of time to peak for pack. Often the curves are so flat on top that the time at which the peak occurs wanders back and forth dramatically. Using 98% of peak tends to force it to occur at the same time each shot. If you have an oddly convex curve with a fast pack rate then this number may need to be adjusted downward.</p><br /><br /><p>The graph below describes fill and pack. Read on beyond for the cases in which more precision is required or you do not have one or the other of the sensors in the cavity. Note that as you change settings (sensor or levels) the values computed for <em>Process Time</em>s and <em>Pack Rate</em>s will change. Therefore, make any necessary changes before doing designed experiments or setting alarms.</p><br /><br /><p><img src="https://rjginc.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/tip21-image1.jpg"/></p><br /><br /><p>The 1000 psi at end of cavity is an old rule of thumb that generally works acceptably. If you need more precision as to when the cavity is exactly full then use the pressure at the “kink” in the cavity pressure curve and add about 20% (for viscosity variation).</p><br /><br /><p><img src="https://rjginc.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/tip21-image2.jpg"/></p><br /><br /><p>What if you do not have an End of Cavity Sensor? In that case open the Sequence Settings’ <em>Fill</em> tab and change the selected sensor to Post Gate (a “Mid Cavity” sensor can be similarly used). Then set the level for “fill” to a value read from the cursor at about the time the post gate reaches its greatest slope. This is a guess but it can be better than nothing. Showing here…</p><br /><br /><p><img src="https://rjginc.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/tip21-image3.jpg"/></p><br /><br /><p>Finally, supposing you have an End of Cavity sensor and no Post Gate sensor. The cavity fill time can still be found by using a set pressure at the end of cavity sensor but there would be no pack computed. Open the Sequence Settings’ Pack tab and select the End of Cavity (or, if you have it, Mid Cavity) sensor. The 98% default can be used or you can adjust it if you have a strange shaped graph.</p><br /><br /><p>Here is the graphical explanation…</p><br /><br /><p><img src="https://rjginc.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/tip21-image4.jpg"/></p><br /></div></p></div>
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		<title>Tip of the Day 19: Machine Fill v.s. Cavity Fill</title>
		<link>https://de.rjginc.com/tip/machine-fill-v-s-cavity-fill-4/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RJG Import]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
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<section class="wp-block-e25m-section bs-section bs-section-3c801e93c5c91c2ac40dd278fede715518a800d9 bs-section---default bs-section--privacy-policy bs-section--white-header"><div class="container">
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<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><h2 class="wp-block-post-title">Tip of the Day 19: Machine Fill v.s. Cavity Fill</h2>

<div class="wp-block-post-date"><time datetime="2008-04-11T09:33:42-04:00">April 11, 2008</time></div></div>



<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><p><div><br /><p>After sending <a  href="https://rjginc.com/tips/15">Tip #15</a>: “What are Fill and Pack?” I got some questions that showed confusion between machine fill and pack v.s. cavity fill and pack.</p><br /><br /><p>The short explanation is this: <strong>Cavity fill</strong> is when the material reaches the end of the cavity so that it can begin to pressurize. <strong>Machine fill</strong> (in a decoupled process) is when the machine slows down (D3) or transfers to hold (D2) <strong><u>BEFORE</u></strong> the cavity is full. The melt then decompresses and the machine slowly packs more material into the subsequently full cavity.</p><br /><br /><p><strong>Machine Fill:</strong></p><br /><br /><p>In the <em>eDART</em> we want the user to set the fill volume for a particular process. This is either done with the cursor on the cycle graph, or a button on the Sequence Settings fill tab (with a short shot) or by typing in a number. If you don’t set fill volume then the <em>eDART</em> uses the time at injection pressure peak. This tells the <em>eDART</em> when the fill portion of the cycle ends <u>from the machine’s point of view</u>.</p><br /><br /><p><strong>Cavity Fill:</strong></p><br /><br /><p>The <u>cavity fill</u> settings in “Sequence Settings” tell the <em>eDART</em> when to interpret the cavity as full. Experience has shown that using 1000 psi at the end of cavity is a good estimate of a repeatable fill time.</p><br /><br /><p>The Sequence Settings tab lets you change the meaning of when a cavity is full. These are saved with the processs, i.e. the mold / material /cavitation combination.</p><br /></div><br /><br /><ul><br />	<li><br />	<div>More Precision or Low Pressure Molding?:<br /><br />	<br /><br />	You can change the level to more accurately reflect the exact time when the cavity is full. Use the cursor to pick the level just above the “kink” in the cavity pressure curve.<br /><br />	 </div><br />	</li><br />	<li><br />	<div>No End of Cavity Sensor?:<br /><br />	<br /><br />	If you have only Post Gate sensors, for example, you can choose a point on the post gate pressure curve that best indicates when the cavity is beginning to pressurize and use that. You would need to change the sensor used for fill to <em>Post Gate</em> and the level to your new selected level.</div><br />	</li><br /></ul><br /><br /><div><br /><p>This tip is focused on fill. The pack settings follow the same idea. Machine pack ends at transfer. Cavity pack starts at cavity fill and ends at 98% of the Post Gate sensor peak. If there is no post gate sensor you must choose another that exists. If someone needs more elaboration on machine v.s. cavity pack, let me know. This is probably a separate tip.</p><br /><br /><p><strong>More Details for Those Interested: Values Computed</strong></p><br /><br /><p><strong>Machine Fill:</strong></p><br /><br /><p>Knowing the end of machine fill allows the <em>eDART</em> to compute viscosity during fill, machine fill time and speed (for repeatability and process setup). It does not tell you how fast the cavity filled to the end. The sequence trace <em>Machine Sequence</em>/ <em>Fill</em> comes from this computation. The summary values are:</p><br /></div><br /><br /><ul><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Effective Viscosity</em>/<em>Fill</em>: Area under the injection pressure curve over the machine fill period (the effort required to fill the mold)</div><br />	</li><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Average Value</em>/<em>Fill Speed</em>: Travel over the fill period divided by the time.</div><br />	</li><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Average Value</em>/<em>Fill Flow Rate</em>: Volume injected over the fill period divided by time.</div><br />	</li><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Sequence Time</em>/<em>Fill Time</em>: The time that the <em>Machine Sequence</em>/<em>Fill</em> is on (from zero crossing on volume till set volume or peak injection pressure).</div><br />	</li><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Fill Shear Rate</em>/<em>Inverse Fill Time</em>: Inverse of <em>Sequence Time</em>/<em>Fill</em></div><br />	</li><br /></ul><br /><br /><div><br /><p><strong>Cavity Fill:</strong></p><br /><br /><p>The <em>eDART</em> uses the Sequence Settings, Cavity Fill setup to decide when the cavity is full. It can then compute a variety of summary values that represent part quality in-cavity far better than the machine variables.</p><br /></div><br /><br /><ul><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Process Time</em>/<em>Cavity Fill</em>: Can correlate to impact resistance (for true shear rate) or to strength of living hinges (molecular alignment).</div><br />	</li><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Process Time</em>/<em>Cavity Pack</em> and <em>Pack Rate</em> both use the cavity fill point as the start of <u>cavity</u> pack.</div><br />	</li><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Process Time</em>/<em>Fill &amp; Pack Time</em>: Ends at 98% (or selected) value at the pack sensor.</div><br />	</li><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Balance</em>/<em>Cavity Fill Time</em>: uses the fill times between cavities to compute balance between them</div><br />	</li><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Range</em>/<em>Cavity Fill Time</em> is the difference between the highest and lowest cavity fill times in multi-cavity mold</div><br />	</li><br />	<li><br />	<div><em>Volume at Fill</em> relates the machine slow-down point (end of machine fill) to the cavity fill point. It is the volume measured at the end of machine fill divided by the injection volume at the point where the cavity is full (end of cavity fill) This shows how decoupled the process is.</div><br />	</li><br /></ul></p></div>
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		<title>Tip of the Day 15: What are Fill and Pack?</title>
		<link>https://de.rjginc.com/tip/what-are-fill-and-pack-4/</link>
		
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		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
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<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><h2 class="wp-block-post-title">Tip of the Day 15: What are Fill and Pack?</h2>

<div class="wp-block-post-date"><time datetime="2008-04-11T09:27:42-04:00">April 11, 2008</time></div></div>



<div class=" bs-column col-sm-12   bs-column-36f30487f5bda5ec35c1fc7a3cfb047ab332daf1 bs-column---default     "><p><div><br /><p>Many of the <em>eDART</em>&rsquo;s computations of the in-cavity values depend on defining when the cavity is filled and when it is packed. This affects such things as cavity fill time (&ldquo;Process Time&rdquo;, &ldquo;Cavity Fill&rdquo;), pack rate, fill and pack time and so on. So the <em>eDART</em> must decide when the cavity is full and when it is packed. If you do not have cavity pressure sensors (and perhaps someday temperature) then this is irrelevant.</p><br /><p>By default it assumes that the cavity is full when the pressure at an End of Cavity sensor reaches 1000 psi. It assumes the cavity is fully packed when the pressure at the Post Gate Sensor reaches 98% of its peak. The 1000 psi at end of cavity (for fill) is an old rule of thumb. The 98% of peak (for pack) prevents variation in pack times caused by curves with very flat tops.</p><br /><p>These settings can be changed in the &ldquo;Sequence Settings&rdquo; tool on the &ldquo;Cavity Fill&rdquo; and &ldquo;Cavity Pack&rdquo; tabs.</p><br /><p>All of these settings are saved with the &ldquo;process&rdquo;: The combination of Mold, Material and Cavities in the Job Setup. If you change the &ldquo;process&rdquo; (e.g. change materials on the Job Setup) then you will need to make the changes for that new material.</p><br /><ul type="disc"><br />    <li>What if you don&rsquo;t have a Post Gate sensor?<br /><br />    <br /><br />    On the &ldquo;Sequence Settings&rdquo;, &ldquo;Cavity Pack&rdquo; tab select the sensor that you do have (e.g. End of Cavity or Mid Cavity). </li><br /></ul><br /><ul type="disc"><br />    <li>What if you don&rsquo;t have an End of Cavity sensor?<br /><br />    <br /><br />    On the &ldquo;Sequence Settings&rdquo;, &ldquo;Cavity Fill&rdquo; tab select the sensor that you do have (e.g. Post Gate or Mid Cavity). </li><br /></ul><br /><ul type="disc"><br />    <li>When should you adjust the level for &ldquo;Cavity Fill&rdquo;?<br /><br />    <br /><br />    &#8211; If you do have an End of Cavity sensor you can sometimes get more precise measurements of fill time by lowering the 1000 psi to just above the &ldquo;kink&rdquo; in the End of Cavity curve where the pressure begins to rise rapidly.<br /><br />    <br /><br />    &#8211; If you do not have an End of Cavity sensor and must change to Post Gate then you need to estimate from the cycle graph how much pressure appears at the gate when the cavity is full. You must pick a number higher than the &ldquo;dynamic&rdquo; (filling) pressure that is caused during flow. Otherwise the <em>eDART</em> will assume that the cavity is full when it is only filling.<br /><br />    <br /><br />    &#8211; Some very low pressure materials (liquid silicon, TPE etc) do not even reach pressures much above 1000 psi when they are fully packed. So you may need to set the fill level quite low to pick up the actual fill point. As above, refer to the cycle graph to find a good pressure. </li><br /></ul><br /><ul type="disc"><br />    <li>When should you adjust the level for &ldquo;Cavity Pack&rdquo; (i.e. % of peak)?<br /><br />    <br /><br />    We have had some odd pressure curves with early discharge and late packing during hold. This kind of process can cause two peaks and the <em>eDART</em> may oscillate as the level of each peak varies relative to the other. Of course, this begs the question: When is the cavity actually packed? A the first or the second peak?<br /><br />    <br /><br />    If there is a lot of mold deflection then deciding for when the cavity is packed may be open to discussion. The first peak during pack speed or hold is, of course, a packed part. But if the mold is deflected then sometimes when it springs back at the end of hold it can compress the material even further. Yet if the material is sufficiently cooled it may not actually pack the molecules together, even though the pressure my rise dramatically. </li><br /></ul><br /></div></p></div>
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